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Nat Kobitz

Nat Kobitz was the former Director of Science and Technology Development for the United States Navy who, in the years before his death, told journalist Ross Coulthart that he had been briefed into programs involving recovered non-human spacecraft.

NKA Science (private consultancy) · Former Director of Science and Technology Development, United States Navy

Nat Kobitz was the former Director of Science and Technology Development for the United States Navy (USN).1 Journalist Ross Coulthart reported that Kobitz phoned him unprompted in early 2020 after receiving a letter from him,2 and that Kobitz called from his home in USA Baltimore, at the age of 92, more than a quarter of a century after a Pentagon meeting he had attended.3 At the time he was fighting a terminal illness.4 His daughter, Celia Kobitz, was named by Coulthart in this context.5 Kobitz left the Navy role in 1994 and subsequently set up a private consultancy, NKA Science.6

Kobitz said that during his career he worked on the launch vehicle airframe for the Gemini space program and on numerous Navy surface ship and submarine projects over nearly three decades.78 He said he was involved in developing a Navy unmanned aerial vehicle project called Sea Scout.9 According to Kobitz, the Sea Scout prototype was lost when it flew too close to a presidential family wedding in Texas and was jammed by security protection systems,10 and the programme ended after the crash, as the vehicle had cost a million dollars to build and no further funding was available.11 Kobitz also confirmed he worked on Anti-Gravity Propulsion research for the Navy, describing his own contribution as relatively unexciting and, in his account, a very low-energy ion propulsion system.1213 He said he did not believe the United States had cracked the secret of anti-gravity despite years of secret research.14

In July 1993, one year before leaving the Navy, Kobitz met Gordon Novel and Novel’s son Sur Novel at the 1993-07 Pentagon meeting between Gordon Novel and Nat Kobitz.15 Sur Novel later confirmed that the figure given the pseudonym “Wally Katz” in Gordon Novel’s book on the Alien Reproduction Vehicle (ARV) Fluxliner was in fact Kobitz,16 and recalled his father showing Kobitz a drawing of the Fluxliner alien reproduction vehicle by Mark McCandlish in Kobitz’s Pentagon office.17 Sur Novel described Kobitz’s facial reaction to the drawing as one of surprise, as though he recognised what it was, rather than alarm.18 Coulthart has said he has a sceptical hunch that Novel embellished what Kobitz said at the meeting to lure readers of his book into funding an anti-gravity propulsion project.19 When later asked directly by Coulthart, Kobitz said only that the Fluxliner story “rings a bell”,20 and after being sent a more detailed version of McCandlish’s graphic, Kobitz said he recognised it and concluded it was a hoax.21

Kobitz told Coulthart he had been read into programmes involving crashed UFOs or Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) and had never been read out of that clearance, though he said he could not speak about it.22 Asked whether he was aware of any recovered alien spacecraft held by the US government, he said he had only hearsay information and was being careful not to speculate about matters he did not know directly.23 He reacted with dismissive laughter when Coulthart recited the official US Air Force explanation, involving Project Mogul, for the debris recovered at the Roswell incident (1947).24 Kobitz confirmed to Coulthart that the United States has been trying to develop recovered alien technology,25 while making clear across several long conversations that he would not breach the terms of his national security oath to reveal full details of what he knew.26

During his time at NKA Science, Kobitz was invited to visit Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, USA, Ohio, to examine strange pieces of metal held under high security, a visit later recorded as Nat Kobitz’s visit to examine a metal fragment at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.27 He had earlier been read into a programme working with recovered UAP technology during his Navy career.28 He said he saw a piece of material reported to him as a titanium alloy not known to the Air Force,29 approximately 0.9 by 1.2 metres in size.30 The fragment showed no attachment except something that appeared welded but was not actually welded,31 and was integral with the surrounding skin, comparable to being integral with a bulkhead.32 Manufacturing staff initially believed the joint resulted from electron beam welding, which typically leaves a small bead or line, but Kobitz did not think it looked that way;33 he observed that it appeared cast in place, with no interruption of the kind typical electron beam welds sometimes show.34 His expert opinion was that there was no known industrial process that could replicate the bond he saw,35 though he reserved judgement on whether the fragment came from a craft not of this world.36

Kobitz also made inquiries with Navy colleagues, on Coulthart’s behalf, about patents held by Salvatore Pais, and none of the colleagues had any information on Pais or on working prototypes of his patented designs.37 Coulthart has said he is in no doubt that Kobitz told him the truth of what he knew and saw about the alleged crash retrieval programme,38 and has described Kobitz as one of the most senior US Defense Department insiders ever to go public with claims of retrieved alien technology.39 In a later interview, Coulthart said he received a reply letter from Kobitz and subsequently had a series of phone calls and online meetings with him,40 that Kobitz lived in Baltimore,41 and that by the time they spoke Kobitz was dying slowly from cancer and staying with his daughter.42 Kobitz passed away while the two were still in the process of talking extensively about what he knew.43 Coulthart said Kobitz introduced him to people with direct knowledge of the Legacy Program and told him he had himself been read into it,4445 that Kobitz was an expert in electron beam welding,46 that he was invited to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base after leaving the Navy though Coulthart suspected he still held a security clearance,47 and that he was taken deep underground there to what was clearly a highly secure installation.48 Coulthart described Kobitz as one of the top scientists in the United States Navy,49 who had worked at US Naval Weapons Centre China Lake and had been inside top-secret facilities buried in hillsides in different parts of the United States.50 Through Kobitz’s instigation, Coulthart said he met people inside the Legacy Program who put everything on the line to tell him what they knew.51

  1. Former Director of Science and Technology Development for the United States Navy
    “Nat Kobitz, the former Director of Science and Technology Development for the US Navy, rang me one day out of the blue.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:628-742 View the source record →
  2. Phoned Ross Coulthart unprompted in early 2020 after receiving a letter from him
    “Nat Kobitz, the former Director of Science and Technology Development for the US Navy, rang me one day out of the blue. He liked my letter.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:628-760 View the source record →
  3. Left the Navy role in 1994 and set up NKA Science
    “Nat Kobitz left his Navy Director of Science and Technology role in 1994 and set up a private consultancy called NKA Science.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:16888-17005 View the source record →
  4. Worked on the Gemini launch vehicle airframe (Kobitz's own account)
    “He worked on the launch vehicle air frame for the Gemini space program, as well as numerous navy surface ship and submarine projects in a near 30-year career.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:11318-11496 View the source record →
  5. Worked on numerous Navy surface ship and submarine projects over nearly 30 years (Kobitz's own account)
    “as well as numerous navy surface ship and submarine projects in a near 30-year career.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:11390-11496 View the source record →
  6. Involved in developing the Sea Scout unmanned aerial vehicle project
    “Kobitz told me one self-effacing story about a navy unmanned aerial vehicle project he was involved in developing, called Sea Scout.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:11581-11707 View the source record →
  7. Sea Scout prototype lost when it flew too near a presidential family wedding in Texas and was jammed by security
    “He confided the hugely expensive prototype was lost when it flew too near the Texas wedding of President Bush's daughter and the president's security protection jammers knocked the drone out.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:11714-11901 View the source record →
  8. Sea Scout cost a million dollars to build, and the program ended after the crash
    “'It cost a million bucks to build and we didn't have any more money. That was the end of the program.'”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:11977-12069 View the source record →
  9. Confirmed working on anti-gravity/field propulsion research for the Navy, describing his own work as unexciting
    “When I asked him if he ever worked on anti-gravity or field propulsion technology, he volunteered that he did and that the navy was researching it, but he would not tell me anything more, only that what he was working on was relatively unexciting.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:12080-12316 View the source record →
  10. Described his propulsion research as a low-energy ion propulsion system
    “'A propulsion system, very low energy ion propulsion,' he told me. 'The unit of force was MMF. Micro-micro farts.'”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:12329-12435 View the source record →
  11. Did not believe the US had cracked anti-gravity despite years of secret research
    “In defiance of the claims in Novel's book, Kobitz confided that he did not think the United States had been able to crack the secret of anti-gravity despite years of secret research.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:12443-12616 View the source record →
  12. Confirmed meeting Gordon Novel and his son at a Pentagon meeting in July 1993, a year before leaving the Navy
    “We moved on to Kobitz's alleged Pentagon meeting with Gordon Novel and son in July 1993, one year before he left the navy, and I was very surprised when he confirmed the meeting.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:12734-12904 View the source record →
  13. Sur Novel confirmed 'Wally Katz' in his father's book was Nat Kobitz
    “He confirmed the man they met was not a 'Wally Katz' but an official named Nat Kobitz, which is what I had assumed based on the book's description of his navy R&D role.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:7442-7605 View the source record →
  14. Sur Novel recalled his father showing McCandlish's ARV drawing to Kobitz in his Pentagon office
    “Sur even remembered his father flourishing McCandlish's drawing of the ARV craft at Kobitz in his Pentagon office.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:7626-7733 View the source record →
  15. Sur Novel described Kobitz's reaction to the drawing as surprise, as if recognising it, not alarm
    “'The look on [Kobitz'] face was kind of like, what are you doing with this? It wasn't like, call the FBI and arrest this guy, national security or anything like that. It was just kind of like, you know it. You know,' Sur said.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:7743-7963 View the source record →
  16. Ross Coulthart's sceptical hunch that Novel embellished what Kobitz said to lure readers into funding his anti-gravity project
    “I have a sceptical hunch that Gordon Novel embellished what Kobitz said at this meeting to lure readers of his book into funding his 'anti-gravity propulsion' project.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:9019-9178 View the source record →
  17. Said he only recalled 'it rings a bell' regarding the Fluxliner ARV story
    “he told me that all he can remember about the ARV Fluxliner story was that 'it rings a bell'.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:13121-13208 View the source record →
  18. After being shown McCandlish's detailed ARV graphic, said he recognised it and concluded it was a hoax
    “Two days later, after I have sent him a detailed graphic of the purported ARV Fluxliner drawn by Mark McCandlish, he told me, 'Okay, I've seen that before. . . . And my conclusion is that it's a hoax. I'm sorry,' he told me.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:13215-13436 View the source record →
  19. Confirmed he had been read into programs involving crashed UFOs/UAP and never read out, but could not speak about it
    “'Nat, were you ever read into any programs involving crashed UFOs or UAPs?' I pressed, repeating the question so he knew for sure what I was asking. There was a deep pause and then he said, 'Yes, I was. I was never read out of it. So, I really don't think it would help but I really can't speak about it.'”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:13741-14041 View the source record →
  20. Said he had only hearsay information on any recovered alien spacecraft and was careful not to speculate
    “I asked, 'Nat, are you aware of any recovered alien spacecraft inside the US government?' He responded cryptically, 'I only have hearsay information. I tried to be very careful not to fall into the category that a fellow did once when I was much younger. He was in his 90s and he said, "Kobitz, let me tell you, some of my greatest adventures never really happened".'”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:14098-14454 View the source record →
  21. Laughed dismissively at the official Project Mogul explanation for the Roswell debris
    “I recited the official US Air Force explanation for the 1947 Roswell crash to him – that the recovered Roswell debris was merely a high-altitude nuclear test surveillance balloon from a secret project codenamed Mogul. He laughed dismissively”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:14837-15066 View the source record →
  22. Confirmed to Coulthart that the US has been trying to develop recovered alien technology
    “'Are you able to confirm to me that the US has been trying to develop recovered alien technology?' Kobitz gave the question careful consideration. 'Yes, I can say that's so.'”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:15756-15925 View the source record →
  23. Made clear he would never breach his national security oath to reveal full details
    “In several long conversations over three weeks, Kobitz made it clear he would never breach the terms of his national security oath and reveal the full details of what he knew.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:15931-16101 View the source record →
  24. Was invited to visit Wright-Patterson Air Force Base during his time at NKA Science to examine strange metal pieces held under high security
    “Perhaps because of this expertise, Kobitz mentioned that, during his time at NKA, he was invited to visit Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, to examine some strange pieces of metal held under high security.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:17313-17524 View the source record →
  25. Was read into a program working with recovered UAP technology during his Navy career
    “he wouldn’t talk any further about the program working with recovered UAP technology, which he admitted he was read into during his time at the navy”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:20450-20594 View the source record →
  26. Saw a piece of material reported to him as a titanium alloy unknown to the Air Force
    “‘I saw a piece of piece of material that was reported to me as being a titanium alloy that was not known to the air force. I did not know what it was, I was not told what it was.’”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:20804-20977 View the source record →
  27. The fragment was approximately 0.9 by 1.2 metres in size
    “It was a piece about three by maybe four feet.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:20982-21023 View the source record →
  28. Showed no attachment except something that appeared welded but was not actually welded
    “It showed no attachment except something welded to it. But it was not welded to it.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:21029-21109 View the source record →
  29. Was integral with the surrounding skin, comparable to being integral with a bulkhead
    “It just was integral with, if you could think of it as a bulkhead, it was integral with the skin, if that helps.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:21113-21219 View the source record →
  30. Did not think the joint looked like typical electron beam welding despite manufacturing staff's initial belief
    “If you know something about electron beam, you know that it doesn’t leave a little bead. They thought that this bulkhead was attached to the skin by electron beam, but it did not look like that to me.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:21241-21438 View the source record →
  31. Observed the fragment appeared cast in place with no interruption, unlike typical electron beam welds
    “It looked like the thing was cast. It was completely strange for me. When you see something cast in place, it is integral and shows no interruption. Even with electron beam, you’ll sometimes see a small line. But this showed nothing, and this is what was strange about this to these manufacturing people.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:21474-21798 View the source record →
  32. His expert opinion was that no known industrial process could replicate the bond
    “Kobitz’s expert opinion was there was no known industrial process that could replicate the bond he saw on that curious fragment of metal at Wright-Patterson.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:21808-21955 View the source record →
  33. Reserved judgement on whether the fragment was from a craft not of this world
    “He reserved judgement on whether the fragment was from some craft not of this world and he only chuckled when I flatly asked if he thought the metal was extra-terrestrial.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:21966-22125 View the source record →
  34. Called Coulthart from Baltimore at age 92, over a quarter of a century after the Pentagon meeting
    “a kindly and clearly still sharp, albeit infirm, 92-year-old Nat Kobitz called me out of the blue from his home in Baltimore.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:10436-10551 View the source record →
  35. Was fighting a terminal illness when he spoke with Coulthart
    “Tragically, Kobitz was fighting a terminal illness and, when his daughter Celia was out of earshot, he whispered that he knew he didn't have long.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:10773-10914 View the source record →
  36. His daughter is named Celia Kobitz
    “when his daughter Celia was out of earshot, he whispered that he knew he didn't have long.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch27:10829-10914 View the source record →
  37. Made inquiries with Navy colleagues about Salvatore Pais's patents on Coulthart's behalf, and none had information on him or working prototypes
    “I asked former US Navy R&D boss Nat Kobitz if he knew anything about Pais's patents and he made a few discrete inquiries. The answer came back that nobody Kobitz or his colleagues knew in the US Navy had any information on either Dr Pais or whether there were any working prototypes of any of his patents.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch28:22126-22423 View the source record →
  38. Coulthart is in no doubt Kobitz told him the truth of what he knew and saw about the alleged crash retrieval program
    “I am in absolutely no doubt that Nat Kobitz told me the truth of what he knew and saw”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch28:29512-29594 View the source record →
  39. Was one of the most senior US Defense Department insiders ever to go public with claims of retrieved alien technology
    “Kobitz was one of the most senior US Defense Department insiders ever to go public with claims of retrieved alien technology.”
    In Plain Sight (2021) ch37:8969-9083 View the source record →
  40. Received a reply letter from Kobitz and subsequently had phone calls and online meetings with him
    “I got a letter back and then eventually I had a whole series of phone calls and meetings online with a wonderful man called Nat Kobitz”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:30:51.1-00:30:59.2
  41. Lived in Baltimore
    “he was a wisecracking Brooklyn Jew, lived in Baltimore.”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:31:11.8-00:31:15.6
  42. Was dying slowly from cancer and staying with his daughter when Coulthart spoke with him
    “He was sadly, when I spoke to him, dying very slowly from cancer and he was staying with his daughter”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:31:16.7-00:31:21.4
  43. Passed away while he and Coulthart were still talking extensively
    “I can reveal Nat's name because sadly he passed away while he and I were in the process of talking extensively about what he knew.”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:31:30.2-00:31:37.9
  44. Introduced Coulthart to people with direct knowledge of the Legacy Program
    “It was Nat who introduced me to people who had direct knowledge of the program”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:31:53.3-00:32:00.4
  45. Told Coulthart he had been read into the Legacy Program
    “Nat also told me that he had been read in i.e. security briefed national security briefed into the legacy program”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:32:02.3-00:32:12.0
  46. Was an expert on electron beam welding, an almost invisible weld
    “because he was an expert on a particular type of welding called, I think it's called electron beam welding, which is an almost invisible weld”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:32:22.9-00:32:30.8
  47. Was invited to Wright-Patterson after leaving the Navy, though Coulthart suspects he still held a clearance
    “after he left the employee of the US Navy, but while I suspect he still had a security clearance, ... He was invited to come to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:32:32.1-00:32:41.1
  48. Told Coulthart he was taken deep underground at Wright-Patterson to a highly secure installation
    “And he was taken deep underground to what he says was clearly a highly secure installation.”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:32:53.3-00:32:59.8
  49. Was one of the top scientists in the United States Navy
    “this is one of the top scientists in the US Navy.”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:33:52.2-00:33:55.4
  50. Had worked at China Lake and had been inside top secret facilities buried in hillsides across the US
    “And he'd been all over the place, China Lake. He'd seen all the top secret facilities. He'd been inside all the big hillsides buried in different parts of America.”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:34:09.3-00:34:18.9
  51. Through his instigation, Coulthart met people inside the Legacy Program who put everything on the line to talk
    “as a result of his instigation and his introductions, I met some fabulous, brave, courageous people inside the legacy program who put everything on the line to tell me what they knew.”
    Ross Coulthart Answers Your Biggest UAP Questions | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart (2026-08-11) 00:34:56.2-00:35:10.3

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