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House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26

The official transcript of the 26 July 2023 public hearing before the House Subcommittee on National Security, Border, and Foreign Affairs, at which three witnesses testified under oath about unidentified anomalous phenomena encounters, government secrecy, and aviation safety.

Pdf · U.S. House Committee on Oversight and Accountability · 2023-07-26

The 2023-07-26 House Oversight UAP Hearing was a public hearing convened on 26 July 2023 by the Subcommittee on National Security Border and Foreign Affairs of the House Committee on Oversight and Accountability. It was held at 10:06 a.m. in Rayburn House Office Building Room 21541 before the 118th Congress, First Session.2 Glenn Grothman chaired the subcommittee3 and Robert Garcia served as Ranking Minority Member.4 James Comer was Chairman and Jamie Raskin Ranking Minority Member of the full committee. The three witnesses were Ryan Graves, Executive Director of Americans for Safe Aerospace; David Grusch, a former National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency senior official and representative to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force (UAPTF); and David Fravor, a retired Navy Commander.5 Tim Burchett submitted into the record Jeremy Corbell’s Corbell Jeremy UAP Puzzle Report, George Knapp’s Knapp George Statement for Record 2023, and the Defense Intelligence Reference Document Advanced Space Propulsion.6 Anna Paulina Luna submitted the NewsNation We Are Not Alone Article.7

Graves, a former F-18 pilot who founded Americans for Safe Aerospace, testified that UAP sightings by military and commercial aircrew are routine and grossly under-reported.8 He described how, after radar upgrades to his squadron in 2014 whilst stationed at NAS Oceana with Fighter Attack Squadron 11 (VFA-11), Fighter Attack Squadron 11 (VFA-11) began detecting unknown objects in its operating area.9 During a training mission in Warning Area W-72, two F-18 Super Hornets were split by a UAP Cube-in-Sphere Object described as a dark gray or black cube inside a clear sphere that came within approximately 15 metres of the lead aircraft.10 The object was estimated at approximately 1.5 to 4.5 metres in diameter.11 The Virginia Beach UAP Near-Miss and related sightings became so frequent that aircrew incorporated discussion of UAP risk into regular preflight briefs.12 Graves also testified that since 2021 all UAP videos have been classified secret or above.13 He estimated that approximately 5 percent of UAP sightings by pilots were being reported, and that the Federal Aviation Administration had no official process to receive such reports.

Grusch, who held a GS-15 civilian rank equivalent to a full bird colonel at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency and served as his agency’s co-lead for UAP and transmedium object analysis, reporting to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force (UAPTF) and later to the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO),14 filed a Presidential Policy Directive 19 urgent concern with the Intelligence Community Inspector General in 2022-05.15 His filing followed reports from multiple current and former military and intelligence community personnel that the US government was operating with secrecy above congressional oversight with respect to UAPs. He testified that during his official duties he was informed of a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering programme and was denied access when he requested additional read-ons.16 Grusch stated he suffered retaliation for becoming a whistleblower17 and characterised the tactic used to silence UAP witnesses as Administrative Terrorism — threatening an individual’s career, security clearance, and reputation to prevent disclosure.28 He testified that he has personal knowledge of individuals who have been harmed in efforts to cover up or conceal extraterrestrial technology,29 and that biologics recovered alongside UAP craft were assessed as nonhuman by individuals with direct knowledge who were still active on the programme.30 Grusch also testified that he spent 11.5 hours providing classified testimony to both congressional intelligence committees, providing the names of specific corporations and their divisions involved in UAP-related programmes, and that undisclosed programmes are funded through misappropriation of funds and via contractors overcharging the government through Independent Research and Development.

Fravor, who in 2004 was commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41 (VFA-41), the Black Aces, tasked to Carrier Air Wing 11 aboard the USS Nimitz,18 provided first-hand testimony about the 2004 Nimitz UAP Encounter. During the Tic Tac Sighting on 2004-11-14, the USS Princeton controller told Fravor’s flight that the objects had been observed descending from above approximately 24,000 metres to approximately 6,000 metres over more than two weeks.19 All four crew members in the two F/A-18F aircraft observed a white Tic Tac-shaped object with its longitudinal axis pointing north-south,20 which had no rotors, no rotor wash, and no visible control surfaces.21 When Fravor manoeuvred to close within approximately 800 metres the object rapidly accelerated and disappeared.22 The USS Princeton subsequently reported it reappeared at the aircraft’s combat air patrol point approximately 100 kilometres away in less than a minute.23 A radar tape showing the object actively jamming an APG-73 Radar was never publicly released and its location remains unknown.24 Fravor testified that the encounter was never officially investigated and none of his crew were ever questioned.25 He stated that the Tic Tac appeared perfectly white and smooth with no visible windows, seams, or markings, and described its flight capabilities as far beyond anything possessed by the US at the time, at the time of the hearing, or likely to be developed in the next ten to twenty years.

The hearing elicited a number of significant statements bearing on government transparency and Special Access Programs. Grusch testified that he absolutely believes the US government is in possession of UAPs, based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over four years,26 and that he knows the exact locations where the US government holds UAP-related craft or materials, some of which had been provided to the Intelligence Community Inspector General and to intelligence committees.27 He stated that decision-making authority over undisclosed UAP-related programmes rests with a group of career senior executive officials both inside and outside government, and that certain elected leaders had more UAP information than some Gang of Eight members. All three witnesses confirmed they believed UAPs pose a potential existential threat to US national security,31 and that UAPs were possibly collecting reconnaissance information on the US, probing capabilities, and testing for system vulnerabilities. Robert Garcia noted the bipartisan character of the session, and Glenn Grothman indicated that follow-up hearings in a more confidential setting were anticipated. The hearing was adjourned at 12:22 p.m.32

  1. Hearing convened at 10:06 a.m. in Room 2154 of the Rayburn House Office Building
    “The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m., in room 2154, Rayburn Office Building”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 1
  2. Hearing held before the Subcommittee on National Security, Border, and Foreign Affairs, Committee on Oversight and Accountability, 118th Congress
    “Before the Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability, House of Representatives, One Hundred Eighteenth Congress, First Session”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 1
  3. Hearing chaired by Glenn Grothman as Chairman of the Subcommittee
    “Hon. Glenn Grothman, [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 1
  4. Robert Garcia served as Ranking Minority Member of the Subcommittee
    “Robert Garcia, California, Ranking Minority Member”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 2
  5. Three witnesses: Ryan Graves (Executive Director, Americans for Safe Aerospace), David Grusch (former NRO representative to the UAPTF), and David Fravor (retired Navy Commander)
    “Mr. Ryan Graves, Executive Director, Americans for Safe Aerospace... Mr. David Grusch, Former National Reconnaissance Office Representative, Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, Department of Defense... Commander David Fravor (Ret.), Former Commanding Officer, United States Navy”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 3
  6. Tim Burchett submitted Jeremy Corbell's UAP Puzzle Report, George Knapp's statement, and a Defense Intelligence Reference Document on advanced space propulsion
    “Report, Jeremy Corbell, "The UAP Puzzle"; submitted by Rep. Burchett. Statement for the Record, by George Knapp; submitted by Rep. Burchett. Defense Intelligence Reference Document, "Advanced Space Propulsion Based on Vacuum (Spacetime Metric) Engineering"; submitted by Rep. Burchett.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 3
  7. Anna Paulina Luna submitted the NewsNation 'We are not alone' article into the record
    “Article, NewsNation, "We are not alone: The UFO whistleblower speaks"; submitted by Rep. Luna.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 3
  8. Graves testified UAP sightings are routine and grossly under-reported
    “as we convene here, UAP are in our airspace but they are grossly under reported. These sightings are not rare or isolated. They are routine.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 10
  9. After radar upgrades in 2014, Graves's squadron began detecting unknown objects
    “After upgrades were made to our jet's radar systems, we began detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 10
  10. A UAP described as a dark gray or black cube inside a clear sphere came within approximately 15 metres of the lead aircraft in Warning Area W-72
    “The object, described as a dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 feet of the lead aircraft”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 10
  11. The cube-in-sphere UAP was estimated at approximately 1.5 to 4.5 metres in diameter
    “was estimated to be five to 15 feet in diameter”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 10
  12. Encounters near Virginia Beach became so frequent they were discussed in preflight briefs
    “Soon these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular preflight briefs.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 11
  13. Graves testified that since 2021 all UAP videos are classified secret or above
    “Since 2021 all UAP videos are classified as secret or above.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 10
  14. Grusch served as agency co-lead for UAP and transmedium object analysis, reporting to the UAPTF and later AARO
    “I was my agency's co-lead in unidentified anomalous phenomena and trans medium object analysis as well as reporting to the UAP Task Force - UAPTF - and eventually, once it was established, the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office - AARO.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 11
  15. Grusch filed a PPD-19 urgent concern with the Intelligence Community Inspector General in May 2022
    “I became a whistleblower through a PPD-19 urgent concern filing in May 2022 with the intelligence community inspector general”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 12
  16. Grusch testified he was informed of a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering programme and was denied access
    “I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program to which I was denied access to those additional read-ons when I requested it.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 12
  17. Grusch stated he suffered retaliation for his decision to become a whistleblower
    “As you know, I have suffered retaliation for my decision”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 12
  18. In 2004 Fravor was commanding officer of VFA-41 aboard the USS Nimitz
    “In 2004, I was a commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41, the world-famous Black Aces. We were tasked to Carrier Airwing 11 stationed on board the USS Nimitz”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 13
  19. On 2004-11-14 the USS Princeton controller told Fravor's flight the objects had been observed descending from above approximately 24,000 metres for over two weeks
    “these objects had been observed for over 2 weeks coming down from over 80,000 feet, rapidly descending to 20,000 feet, hanging out for hours and then going straight back up.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 13
  20. All four crew members observed a white Tic Tac-shaped object with its longitudinal axis pointing north-south
    “All four of us, because we were an F-18F so we had pilots and WSO in the backseat, looked down and saw a white Tic Tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing north south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 13
  21. The Tic Tac object had no rotors, no rotor wash, and no visible control surfaces such as wings
    “There were no rotors, no rotor wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 13
  22. The Tic Tac accelerated and disappeared when Fravor pulled his nose onto it within approximately 800 metres
    “Our altitude at this point was about 15,000 feet and a Tic Tac was about 12,000. As we pulled nose onto the object within about a half mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 13
  23. After the encounter the USS Princeton controller reported the object reappeared at the aircraft's CAP point approximately 100 kilometres away in less than a minute
    “the controller came up and said, "sir, you are not going to believe this, but that thing is at your CAP point roughly 60 miles away in less than a minute."”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 14
  24. A radar tape showing the Tic Tac actively jamming an APG-73 radar was never publicly released and its location is unknown
    “What you do not see is the radar tape that was never released, and we do not know where it is at, of the act of jamming that the object put on an APG-73 radar”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 14
  25. The Tic Tac Sighting was never officially investigated and none of the crew were ever questioned
    “What is shocking to us is that the incident was never investigated. None of my crew were ever questioned.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 page 14
  26. Grusch testified he believes the US government possesses UAPs, based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over four years
    “Absolutely, based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over 4 years.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 file_page 23, printed_page 19
  27. Grusch testified he knows exact locations where the US government holds UAP-related craft or materials
    “I know the exact locations and those locations were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the intelligence committees.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 file_page 23, printed_page 19
  28. Grusch characterised the tactic used to silence UAP whistleblowers as 'administrative terrorism'
    “I call it administrative terrorism. That is their quiver - their tool in the toolbox to silence people, especially, you know, career government service cares about their career, cares about their clearance, their reputation to climb the ladder.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 file_page 27, printed_page 23
  29. Grusch testified he has personal knowledge of people harmed in efforts to conceal extraterrestrial technology
    “Do you have any personal knowledge of people who have been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology? Mr. Grusch. Yes, personally.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 file_page 25, printed_page 21
  30. Grusch testified that biologics came with some UAP recoveries and were assessed as nonhuman
    “Nonhuman, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 printed_page 41
  31. All three witnesses confirmed UAPs potentially pose an existential threat to US national security
    “Do you feel, based off of your experience and information that you have been privy to, that these UAPs provide an existential threat to the national security of the United States? Mr. Graves. Potentially. Mr. Grusch. Yes, sir, potentially. Commander Fravor. Same answer, potentially. I would say definitely potentially.”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 printed_page 44
  32. Hearing adjourned at 12:22 p.m.
    “If there is no further business, without objection, the Subcommittee stands adjourned. [Whereupon, at 12:22 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]”
    House Oversight UAP Hearing: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency, 2023-07-26 final lines
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